Q&A With Single Cask Nation, Part 2

By Kurt Maitland

Continuing from Part 1.

Kurt Maitland: So about American single malt. I’ve read and heard that you’ll be doing more releases. Josh, as you and Jason will be the boots on the ground for American single malt, could you enlighten me as to what you are thinking of doing in that space?

Josh Hatton: The thing is we’ve done an American single malt for 10 years. It hasn’t been our primary focus but since we started [Single Cask Nation] we’ve bottled a Westland almost every single year and have added Virginia Distillery, Balcones, etc. American single malt is something that that we continue to champion whether we joined ASC or not. Jason and I and surely Jess, she’s like the world’s biggest Westland fan girl/fan person you know. I would argue against us being newcomers in the space. I would say we’ve really tried to put a significant focus on American single malt throughout our run as Single Cask Nation. 

Jess Lomas: It nearly killed me, but we’ve got a cask of Westland Single Malt bottled here (in the UK). I just think American single malts are a really fun category to watch developing on this side of the pond. Because I definitely am in the 2% of people in the UK who give a shit about American single malt so far. It’s funny to watch it kind of happening and creeping up, but it is happening. I went through Heathrow and Jack Daniels were pouring their American single malt. Did I love it? No, I did not? But it was very funny seeing how Jack Daniels hired an agency where they just have people who pour – “This week we’re pouring Glendronach. Next week, we’re pouring Jack Daniels Single Malt, the week after that will be Bacardi, etc”.

Whereas you’ve got the real grunt work being done by Copperworks, Westland, Westward, and the like, who are really putting the manpower into it. But it’s obviously coming if the big boys are paying attention. I’m very excited to see how that’s translated this side of the pond, because in the UK, and to be honest, anywhere, that’s not America, if you ask them for an American-made spirit, they’re going to tell you bourbon. When I went to the US, and they asked me why I was there and I said I was going to Westland the guy in immigration was like “No, we only make whiskey in Kentucky”. “And I was like, you are wrong. Please let me in the country.”

Kurt Maitland: I’ve had that discussion about where whiskey gets made in this country. I assumed that American single malt was going to get more prominence once they got their official TTB designation. Also, Josh and I have discussed this in the past. If you are looking for single malt as an independent bottler and you’re looking for something with some flavor profiles that might be reminiscent of scotch. American Single Malt isn’t a bad place to look. It’s not scotch but you get a cheaper price point and it’s early enough for a lot of distilleries that they will not be opposed to moving some casks. The big players have started getting to American single malts because they can and they don’t want this market to start to grow without them having a position in it. They don’t want to wait eight years or for the designation to happen before they make moves so Diageo buys Balcones. I figure that a company like Brown Forman feels “Now, we have to get into this. We have name recognition, and we can tie our releases to established distilleries like Woodford, Jack Daniels, etc”. That increased prominence means they’re going to spend money to push the category and possibly they’ll open doors because they have distribution channels that a great indy bottler like Lost Lantern doesn’t.

It’s also interesting as one of the best received tastings I had last year was with Lost Lantern and featured a lot of regional bourbons, ryes and American Single Malt. I have a member that is on a tight budget and almost never buys bottles, she was so in love with what they poured, she went out and bought two bottles after that tasting. There’s a lot of potential if you can get the people who don’t open their wallets to dig deep.

Jason Johnstone-Yellin: Kurt. I think the point that brought us into this here is, you know, if we started selling Westland in 2012, 2013, 2014. Once Lost Lantern starts selling American Single Malt that only helps us. When we do more American Single Malt that only helps Lost Lantern and others. When Jack Daniels put out single malt, that only helps us. Now it could be absolute pish and somebody might taste that and go, “Oh, American single malt is garbage.”  At which point, yes, we’ve taken a step backwards. But somebody knows what American single malt is, whether they’ve had a poor experience or not. And I think that’s the part where all of us doing this and it’s still, you know, a handful of groups doing this, right. But we’re all standing on the shoulders of each other. And so it is that conversation of “They are speaking to people that we’re not speaking to about American single malt. We’re speaking to people that they’re not speaking to about American single malt.” That’s only good. When Jess is overseas talking Westland and Remy are pouring Bruichladdich. And then like, oh, we also have this American product, right? Somebody who’s met Jess along the line goes, “Oh, yeah, I’ve heard of that. That can that rings a bell.” Like, the thing that we’ve been saying everywhere about this? Greater focus on American Single Malt is kind of how we’re saying it but it’s mostly just us getting out and talking to people.

How did we get here with Scotch? 12, 13 years ago Josh and I are saying to people “Have you heard of Kilchoman?” Nobody had. “Have you heard of Arran?” Nobody had. “Had you heard of BenRiach, Glen Moray?”. Nobody had, right? And then even eight years later, we’re selling those out in two minutes. We’re exactly there with American Single malt. “Have you heard of Westland? Ooh, aren’t they in Portland? No, that’s Westward.” But that’s where we are. But if you put in the time and you’ve got other groups doing this, we can make some ground on this pretty quickly. And if ratification comes down on top of that, this has the potential to take off like a rocket. Then we move into questions of quality, then we move into questions of who’s responsible for telling that story. But these are early days. I’ve said this on our podcast, One Nation Under Whisky, for a number of years, I think it’s a very exciting time to be at the dawn of a brand new category, some of which is absolutely fucking terrific whiskey. Like that’s a brilliant place to be. I feel quite privileged to be there for that.

Kurt Maitland – People are lucky in that it’s you guys and Lost Lantern and some other companies are going through and selecting what they’re going to taste. It’s weird. In some respects, the category benefits from the fact that most of these distilleries are state locked. They don’t have distribution outside of their state. So the first point of contact with these whiskies are you guys bottling them or Lost Lantern bottling them and you both have better distribution than these distilleries. It helps all those companies get out and about, and for people know who they are. Frey Ranch has really relatively limited distribution, but people know it exists. And there are other brands, it’ll be the same thing. It definitely doesn’t hurt the single malt producers, because all of a sudden, they’re getting advertising that they don’t normally get. It attracts more attention, it brings in potentially more revenue. It makes their entry into other markets perhaps easier. Now they have fans. “Okay, it’s selling well in the state. Let’s see what we can do with that.” In that way the independent bottlers are the tip of the spear.

Jess Lomas: I think it is about adding a new category and new producers. The hard sell, I think will always remain in the US if you are not from the state where whatever you are pouring is from. But I also think the UK is difficult because we’re such a stronghold for Scotch, that I think the idea of persuading people to drink whisky that’s not made in Scotland is still a very difficult conversation here in the UK.

But when you go to places like Sweden, they have their own younger industry. There are a ton of young Swedish distilleries whose models are not that dissimilar to what’s happening with American Single Malt, but it’s happening in Sweden. And so, you’ve got consumers who are like, “Oh, cool. Well, we really like these Swedish ones. Let me try this American one.” The guy pouring Bruichladdich on the is also pouring Westland. It’s a hand sell job but let me tell you every hand sell that they’re doing someone’s taking a bottle home with them. They bottled a cask of Westland for the festival I was at. It was ridiculously underpriced. It was fucking delicious. And everybody who was trying, it was like, “Oh, this is brilliant. We’re all Westland fans now”. So, I think in markets where the idea of a distillery that hasn’t been around since 1794, it’s not that difficult, whereas in Scotland, we’re like, “Well, this is what we do. And we don’t want to hear about your funny modern stuff, especially all this dodgy American stuff. That’s not even bourbon, keep that away from me.” So, I think that’s cool as a category and like you say, ratifying it’s only going to make it more official. And I think it’s super cool to be part of Single Cask Nation, in the mix at the very beginning and championing it demonstrably for 10 years.

Jason Johnstone-Yellin – When we spoke with Shilton Almeida when he was still with Paul John, and he would say, you know for most of the Indian consumers, it was “I don’t want an Indian single malt, I want Scotch. And I don’t want to drink the local single malt. I want Scotch”, because that came with something, and it meant something. And it’s interesting as much as America is very much a “USA, USA, USA”, kind of place. When you say it’s an American single malt, there is a certain consumer for whom that’s a step down from Scotch. I think it’s trying to meet people where they can take pride in American spirit and an American single malt that isn’t bourbon, that isn’t rye, it isn’t from Kentucky, you know. I think that that, to me is part of the conversation of this is we’re so proud in Virginia, of everything Virginia, and then you say “We’ve got Virginia single malt” and they will say I really wanted a Scotch. And it’s just trying to meet that consumer and don’t get me wrong, here are a lot of Virginians, who are very proud of [Virginia Distilling Company] and Catoctin Creek. But there is still that “Rye comes from Kentucky. It doesn’t come from Purcellville. Single Malt comes from Scotland. It doesn’t come from Livingston.”

Kurt Maitland – That why I say that club and festival tastings are so important. I have my whiskey club in NYC. All of you have been there. Josh is currently the record holder having poured for us like a dozen times. But I also do one for a great club in Lancaster, PA.  PA is a control state so you can have a problem from the get-go as far as spirits. But I did an American Single Malt tasting because people were asking me about bourbon and I’m like “Let’s try something else American and see what you think.” And they loved it. But it’s just breaking that barrier. It’s not their first thought to go looking for something new. They stick to what they know. It’s easier to go grab a bottle of Four Roses or grab a bottle of Johnnie Walker than it is to experiment. And the nice thing about a festival or whiskey tasting is that they bring down of the cost of introduction to the spirit. Because then you can least taste things and say, “Oh, well, I’ve tasted four. And I really liked those two, maybe don’t like that one. But I like these two. I’ll explore more of that.”

So, here is my last question – now that you’re starting this new journey for the brand, what are you guys most looking forward to? You’ve been doing this for a while and working together for a decent amount of time. So now that changes have been made, what’s next?

Jason Johnstone-Yellin – I’m very much looking forward to new collaborations. And so in Australia, we’ve got Backwoods. That’s a ridiculously small number of collaborations for a country the size of Australia, and that has one particular region in Tasmania, that is blowing the bloody doors off. So getting a chance to sit back and tell a global story. Scotch. Yep, check that box. American. Yep, check that box. We’re gonna do more. We’re going to keep building global. Where can we really stretch out our wings and really see who’s doing interesting things. So, I’m really excited by that. That’s not the only thing but having the freedom and the opportunity to build global collaborations is massive, absolutely massive.

Jess Lomas: Shit, that’s what I was gonna say. I’m excited that your collaboration destination of choice I was Australia. I quite like the opportunity to expand more but also I guess having the support and the knowledge that there’s a framework behind us somewhere that if we want to take slightly more risky adventures then you know there’s something there to stop us going totally mental.

I also just like the idea that now we have done a bit of planning, getting out there and being much more internationally/face to face pouring SCN whiskies is really exciting to me. COVID’s been really funny, because I’ve done lots of international tastings from my sofa, which is fun, but not quite as fun as getting your last luggage reports filed in every country visit. And I like the idea of seeing what else is out there. I think it’s a really cool opportunity. Not only while we’re pouring at festivals, but the idea of being able to see what else is in the room. And being in Germany means it’s going to be access to a whole bunch of really strange, independently bottled stuff that I’ve never seen before. And a whole bunch of German distilleries that I’ve had very little exposure to when I’ve done the judging recently, I’ve met a couple of people who run distilleries in Germany. That’s been really cool and I’ve had samples of their stuff. I’m looking forward to finding them in Nuremberg and trying more of their liquid.

Josh Hatton – I think for me over the years, Jason and I have had a number of different projects, ideas, that, you know “That would be good.” And then you put it to the backburner. “This would be good.” And then you put it to the backburner. I think now the future is a bit more open and there’s some project ideas that we’ve been discussing that, you know, we now have the opportunity to maybe act on some. That I’m excited about just, you know, getting some more of our ideas to actual fruition and having the backing behind it to make some of these a reality. That’s exciting to me.